A debate asks if Nikola Jokic’s apex is over

One big night did not settle whether Nikola Jokic is still the player he was. It only sharpened the question.

On a recent episode of “Shapiro and Pirro” on Denver Sports, Jake Shapiro and Pirro used the Denver Nuggets’ 128-109 win over the Toronto Raptors to argue about “Apex Jokic.” A Bill Simmons clip had suggested that version of Jokic might be gone. Jokic then went for 32 points, 10 rebounds and 11 assists on 13-of-19 shooting in 30 minutes. The hosts agreed on most of the facts. They split on what “apex” means.

Best in the world, or merely elite?

Shapiro’s definition is strict. For roughly five years, from late 2020 until the knee injury, Jokic was clearly the best player in basketball, and he hasn’t been since.

“So, if your definition is Apex Jokic is by far the best player in the league, I’m in agreement with Bill,” Shapiro said.

He cited Jokic’s first six games, including an Oklahoma City game he said ranks among the 50 worst of Jokic’s career by game score. He also pointed to Victor Wembanyama, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Luka Doncic, who he said have raised their highest heights to Jokic’s level.

Pirro’s objection is mostly about timing.

“It’s November 4th. Like, can we just take it easy a little bit?” Pirro said.

His definition is looser. If a player can be the best in the world on any given night, he’s still at the apex. By that measure, Pirro sees Jokic as roughly 90% of what he was, at least in his mind.

The floor and the ceiling

Neither host thinks the ceiling is gone. They disagree about which number matters.

Pirro would rather have a high floor, because a steady Jokic lifts everyone else. Shapiro thinks the floor is exactly what has slipped.

“I think the floor of what Nikola Jokic gives you as a baseline, night in, night out has lowered,” Shapiro said.

He still expects a top-five season and something close to a triple-double average. What he doesn’t expect is the consistency of the first half of the decade. That is why he is watching Jokic’s baseline over the Nuggets’ four-game road trip. He wants to see whether Jokic can reliably give 25, 10 and 10.

The roster problem both can see

The hosts converge on the supporting cast, though they draw different conclusions from it.

Shapiro argued that the Nuggets need Jokic to be the best player alive just to have a title shot. Pirro called that a sign of a poor roster, which is the point. Shapiro agreed, and he said it explains why Jokic took double teams himself last night instead of passing out of them. In Shapiro’s telling, Jokic knows it’s the most efficient shot available because “the players around him stink.”

For Pirro, that shifts the blame. He thinks this version of Jokic on the championship team of a few years ago would get about the same result.

“It’s less about Jokic to me, and it’s more so about the talent and the organization around it,” Pirro said.

Shapiro added another layer. He heard Jokic’s postgame comments about smaller defenders grabbing and wrestling him without getting calls as an admission of what Shapiro says he has been warning about for four years. He thinks the physical toll may be part of why the apex is ending.

Pirro still conceded a point. He doesn’t think Jokic wins another MVP. His confidence in Jokic as the centerpiece of a contender, though, hasn’t moved.

What the argument turns on is what the Nuggets are asking of Jokic. If a title run requires him to be the clear best player in basketball, a lower floor is a crisis. If a better roster can carry some of the load, a top-five Jokic may be enough.

Disclosure: This article was transcribed from our original audio content and edited for readability with the assistance of generative AI. The article has been reviewed by our editorial team prior to publication. Please watch or listen to the clip above for the full segment.

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